I wouldn’t normally write about disagreements, but this guy whom I’m staying with until tonight (thank god) and I have had a couple of arguments (to him, to me it’s just another discussion, albeit slightly heated) with and he exclusively told me to tell my friends because he didn’t think I was making any sense or that I had any ounce of logic in me and no one will think I’m making sense, not even other people who are from arts, not my friends, and not my profs (which could actually be true, considering my horrible grade for that mod).
But enough about that. I think it started something like this. And this is not word for word, and some of it is generalised. So tell me where my arguments go wrong.
His opinion: Poor people are that way because they don’t work hard. (I can’t remember if he said this exactly, but I know that he definitely said that rich people work hard for their wealth and that governments should not tax them heavily just to support the poor who don’t work as hard.)
My argument: Not all the poor don’t work hard. Sometimes it depends on the opportunities they receive.
His counter: Opportunities depend on whether or not you grab them. (My interpretation)
Here I was thinking that not everyone starts off equally, but I think he understood “opportunities” as along the way, they don’t work hard enough to make full use of their opportunities.
And then there was a whole long period of him trying to make me agree with him and me trying to make him understand me. And of course he thought that I couldn’t understand him. (I did, I just didn’t agree with him.) And I think he thought I was trying to make him agree with me. (I wasn’t, I was just challenging his ideas.)
The problem started when he said that he was basing his reasoning on facts whereas I wasn’t (can’t remember what he called mine). I wasn’t going to dispute his “facts”, since I have no idea where they came from. (This was the second argument by the way, the first one was about Malays being innately lazy and that’s why they’re poor and his argument was that statistically, more middle income Malays are falling into working class brackets than the chinese. I can’t dispute his figures, and I went on about culture, which he understood as the malay culture as being innately lazy.)
Anyway, I digress.
I remember Hui talking about Descartes and knowledge, so I dredged up that little memory. What I said was that “not all facts are true” (and I remember this because he went on about this bit, later I clarified that not all facts are always accurate, even though I can’t remember what was wrong with it).
His example: “I know for a fact that we cannot live without air, food and water.”
I asked him to prove it. So he said that it’s been proven scientifically that people die without air, food and water. He took a while to convince me, so I brought up the point that science is not always accurate because it depends on experiments, which are never 100% accurate and we basically know nothing.
He asked me whether I would still live if I stopped breathing. Okay fine, I concede that point. And then he argued that facts are true. So I pointed out some other axioms, like 1+1=2, which he agreed couldn’t be proven, but qualified as exceptions to the rule (rule being “facts are always true”).
So of course I had to ask how he knew that “we can’t live without air, food and water” was satisfying the rule of “facts are always true” and not the exception to the rule
Oh then there was the bit about “how do you know we exist?” in response to “air, food, water”, which he took as a disagreement to his statement (it’s not, it’s just a question, no agreement or disagreement involved). I had to explain myself of course. IF we don’t exist, we don’t REALLY need air, food and water, just that we think we do.
Did that make sense? I knew he didn’t get me there. Abstract reasoning doesn’t seem to be his strong trait, and I know I wasn’t being as clear as Descartes would be able to do. (Even though he said he’s read philosophy and it’s nothing like my examples. He had a point, and I did say that I don’t know enough about it, which led him to argue that if I don’t know much, I shouldn’t use it at all, but since I have that bit of information, and it made sense to me, why not use it?)
Now that I think about it, there are a lot more loopholes in his assumptions than I noticed. Now I just need someone to critique my own arguments. Don’t hold back (no really, be nice, since I’m really sensitive). I don’t think I made any personal attacks (I hope not), so just tell me if you think my arguments are as illogical as he says.
Oh, and I don’t have a problem with him as a person, his opinions are his own, and he can think whatever he likes. And I’ve tried to be as objective as possible, so if you think I’m not, tell me too.
11 Comments
July 1, 2008 at 12:51 pm
I’m with you about how people embark from diffferent starting points in the track of life.
Opportunities? Look at all the different (same) education systems in the world to save me from lengthy explanations.
Innately lazy? Heck, that is a trait that is being falsely linked with *certain* cultures = socialization. I don’t think that such traits can be “innate” in the first place so I feel that it is unfair and shallow to call a certain group of people something by honour of their race/language/gender/blah blah blah.
At work now, continuing tonight. TBC, ciaoz
July 1, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Got a short break to quickly finish off my comment because I’ll be busy tonight. x.x
Judging on his obsessiveness with figures, I don’t really think he does comprehend and accept philosophy. Because he’s so blinded by the fake truths that statistics are biasedly showing.
I believe that some “understanding” (note, not knowledge) can be innate but I personally hold the view that one’s personality and character traits as well as one’s life opportunities are dependent on external factors.
His reasoning is flawed. Not all poor people do not work hard. Similarly, not all rich people work hard. It’s just the situations these groups of people are given. Slaves who work hard but remain poor, rich people who do nothing but just happened to inherit tons of money, for example. = HE IS SHALLOW. (Yep, that’s a personal attack. Sue me.)
July 1, 2008 at 3:42 pm
I should make a clear disclaimer though. And that is, I am, after all, your mother so it doesn’t surprise me to know that I’m following your line of argument well. (And it shouldn’t surprise you, too, naturally)
As fer philosophy, it’s time fer your friend to take some time off, forget bloody statistics, and re-read Descartes. =p
Funny how he was talking about logic when it appears to me as if he has no abstract idea of what logic and reasoning is. Ooops. Of course, you did mention that abstract isn’t really his cup of tea.
I am mean.
Wakakakaka.
July 1, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Yup. He was saying that my friends wouldn’t understand what I was saying. And although I tend to be clearer in writing than in spoken forms, I was sure that you at least would be able to understand what I was saying, if only because some of those ideas I’d gotten from you.
I think he’s kinda childish though. He refuses to speak to me now. *rolls eyes* as if I care whether or not I win an argument. If he had made sound arguments I’d be happy to concede defeat.
The other point about education systems? I did sort of bring up working class and lack of preschool, then he countered with his own lack of nursery schooling (representative sample much?) and that with 6 years of primary school (compulsory and free for malays) they should be able to catch up if they work hard enough. And that’s not even bringing in individual aptitudes, which I hate to admit, isn’t always BS, although there are lots of factors which could affect this too.
So then I pointed out that working class = no tuition, no piano classes, no afterschool activities to enrich a child’s life = fall even further behind. And I’m mean, but I was kinda gloating that I scored a point here.
July 2, 2008 at 1:43 am
Lol…two words :Elitist loser. That friend of yours I mean.
He reminds me of that stupid boss in my last job who believe that malays are slow and that if you are smart, you are smart, if you are stupid, too bad, you will never make it even if you try your best. In short, we are not born equal.
Please tell your friend to go work in the Service next time. I am sure he can get along well with my boss…until she finds him stupid that is. >.<
On the other hand, I’ll like to put across the point that the terms “rich” and “poor” are rather subjective, and does not equates solely wealth. For example, a man with 1 million dollars might think himself poor, while a self sustaining farmer might sees himself as rich and lucky. And we know that farmer works hard too.
Furthermore, being rich or poor also has nothing to do with working hard or opportunities. I believe that it is about SAVING and managing. There are many people in the world who have jobs that are considered poorly paid and unattractive, yet becoming rich in the end. Why? It is because they save. Likewise, a man might be working hard all his life, earning a lot yet spending just as much at the same time till he finally fall into debts etc.
Oh and your friend is definitely wrong to assume facts are 100% accurate. Take one example, for many years transfat has been regarded as healthy by the world, because some scientists discovered that you can actually create it artifically and publish research papers saying that it is healthier than animal fats. Look what is happening now. What was previously known as a “fact” has now become untrue, and I wonder how many people had died because of it.
So never assume something is right because it’s a fact. You never know what will happen tomorrow. Haha.
Anyway, I shall stop here for now because I dont want to create a wall of text on your poor blog. Heh. Maybe we can talk about it more when we meet?=)
July 2, 2008 at 12:48 pm
I still hold my view of life opportunities =x
Saving and management may be important, but even allowances for that are dependent on the life opportunities one starts life with. =x
July 2, 2008 at 10:40 pm
I lost my last comment cos I forgot to enter my email… -_-”
Anyways, I learn some stuff about inequalities in my elective. So here goes:
One way to separate the poor, middle class and rich is by their wealth and financial worth. Financial worth is a better guide as it is their assets - liabilities - net equity in owner occupied property. In fact, the richest 1% owns approx 50% of the world’s financial worth.
The poor lack the resources to improve themselves. Even if they are presented with opportunities, they do not have the capabilities to grab it. True, with compulsory education part of the gap might be compensated for, but he forgot that there is a huge difference even before they enter pre-school. The educated will have the knowledge on what and how to teach their kids. On the other hand, the working class will not have the time to educate their kids beyond the most basic. In the case of the extremely poor, they may not even have the books. This is a vicious cycle that is not easy or cheap to break so the generations to follow continues this trend.
Some famous e.g., George W. Bush went to Yale because his family could afford to send him to a prep sch that was famous for getting people into Ivy League schools.
Bill Gates’s grandparents left him a trust fund and his father was a lawyer ( a partner if I nv remember wrongly) and his mother was a bank manager.
Ok I think I forgot lots of points lol. That guy sounds like he thinks that he is always right…. YUCKS
July 2, 2008 at 10:47 pm
Quote from xian’er:
“The poor lack the resources to improve themselves. Even if they are presented with opportunities, they do not have the capabilities to grab it. ”
Add on to xian’er’s point:
The poor lack capabilities to grab it because they lack opportunities to gain these capabilities.
July 4, 2008 at 2:17 pm
he is an idiot larh. what rubbish that rich people work hard for their wealth and that poor pple are poor cuz they dont work hard. that is like damn childish mentality. i know at least 3 pple who are supposedly ‘rich’ not cuz they work hard for it but rather they live off their parents or sth. and yes, jingchuan i agree with u regarding the bit on opportunities. i think u can just ignore him. very immature. and i miss yooooooouuuu. ):
July 4, 2008 at 9:46 pm
Haha then I must be a loser to all of you…I have all the opportunities, education and all, but I still fail in the end…yeah…so remember, there’s always exception to everything.
July 8, 2008 at 1:02 pm
Nice to know there’s been a conversation going on. And qm, you haven’t failed yet. Too tired to write coherently now so maybe later.
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